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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:18 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3272
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
I am an environmental engineer by day and a nitro spraying luthier at night. I just don't see any "real" environmental concerns here. I guess if you spill a 55-gallon of lacquer in your shop, and it runs out the door and soaks into the ground, and your located over a shallow aquifer that is being utilized by your next door neighbor with a water well, then you might have a problem. Otherwise, not really. Also, atmospheric degradation is not a factor because one man guitar shops do not make a significant contribution to atmospheric loading. The real concern is safety (as has been previously stated), and spraying in a populated area does have potential human exposure concerns.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:24 am 
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Koa
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Alan,

"I use either French polish or Rockhard varnish. No, neither of those is perfect, either: they're just better than the alternatives for me. In fact, there is no _good_ finish, there are just choices between the bad features that you can or can't put up with in your application. At least shellac gets _better_ with age."

Can you tell more about the Rockhard varnish. How is it applied, it's characteristics, where to buy, brand, etc.
I have been F.P.'ng my guitars (mostly, I do spray nitro once in a while) with Shellac but am very much interested in varnish. TIA

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"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:49 am 
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Koa
Koa
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Location: United States
Hello everyone,
Once again thanks for the tremendous help. I am thinking I will give
French Polish a try.

I did not intend to start an environmental riot with my last post. Perhaps
I should have worded things a bit more carefully. I think it would take a
lot of spraying nitro outside by many people to truly affect the
environment - which obviously isn't happening. However, it has always
been my belief that we should be as careful with the environment as we
can.

If you have the opportunity to protect the environment and you choose
not to, then you should rightly feel a twinge of guilt. For many of us, we
don't finish enough guitars to even worry about environment factors -
only the health hazards.

As individuals alone, our impact on our world is slight and mostly
unnoticed. As huge population, these small contributions do add up and
their effects can be dramatic.

For this reason, I try to be as environmentally responsible as I can...within
reason.


That is what I meant to say.

Thanks again, everyone.

SimonSimonF38765.5398611111


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:17 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:58 am
Posts: 552
Location: Canada
A the last Gal convension, I was privileged to attend Mike Doolin's KTM 9 workshop. The process looks easy & safe and there are many good reasons to choose it.
I would be using KTM9 if the finish was as pleasing to me as nitro, but it just isn't. When looking at any waterborne finished guitar, I am always "aware" of the finish. To me there seems to be a subtle milkyness which can't be disguised. When I look at a Nitro finished guitar, I am only "aware" of the wood underneath.
Granted, nitro is nasty stuff but with reasonable precautions the hazards can be minimized.
I hope waterbornes continue to improve. They are almost "there" now.Daniel M38765.6394791667


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:17 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
Dave:
by 'rockhard' I mean Behlen's 'Rock Hard Table Top Varnish'. I get it at Woodcraft Supply. Properly applied it has fewer 'witness line' problems than most available varnishes, and otherwise looks and works about as well as my all-time favorite varnish, the Mowhawk '4-Hr Rubbing Varnsih' that they stopped making about ten years ago (darn).

I use varnish much the way violin makers do: very much thinned out. I add about 25% mineral spirits, 5% acetone and a little bit of kerosene, by volume, to get a water-thin mix. The thinner does what it says it does. The acetone, which is about the least hazardous of the strong solvents, flashes off quickly to thicken the varnish up a little when you've spread it out, so that it doesn't run as much. It also helps the new coat to 'bite', reducing witness lines. The kerosene is a brushing agent; spike lavender oil smells nicer, but costs more.

If you keep your brush really clean, so that there's not much 'sand' in it, and use a fairly good sized one, you can spread the varnish thinly and not have to do much sanding between coats at all. I use a couple of 3-1/2" bristle brushes, hardware store variety, and alternate them so that they can dry out well. With the kerosene the varnish self-level enough to get rid of most brush marks if you don't 'pull' it too much.

The first coat usually goes over a light French polish type pumice fill. This is especially important on the top, which can drink up quite a bit of thin varnish that would add a lot of damping. Yeah, I know, _grain filling_ on the _top_? Yup; it seals the earlywood. The drawback is that shellac has a different index of refraction than the varnish, and 'clouds' it just a little bit. You won't notice unless you set it next to a piece that has the varnish on bare wood.

The first coat takes 24 hours to dry, or maybe more. Rosewoods slow it down. Don't re-coat until the first coat is dry! Sand lightly; I use 1500 Micromesh, before putting on the new coat.

Once the first coat has dried the subsequent ones are ready to re-coat in four hours if the humidity and temperature are not too bad. I try to do two coats in a day, which is why I need two brushes.

If you're good at it and don't get any runs the last coat should only need a little Micromesh and some plastic polish to look good. I like to allow the final coat to set up for a week or so if possible before polishing it up: that also helps with 'witness lines'.

Using this schedule I can get a pretty good looking finish with only 5-7 coats, and those are very thin. You won't get the gloss that nitro or the UV cures will give, but when it's done right the depth of an oil varnish finish is hard to beat.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:33 pm 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:48 pm
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First name: Don
Last Name: Atwood
City: Arlington
State: Virginia
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
[QUOTE=MichaelP]
But to condemn a product because it comes with safety issues and declare it un-worth of use based solely on it's related environmental or health hazards is as nearsighted as using it without taking the proper safety measures.
[/quote]

Michael, I'll have to be the one to disagree. My job is regulating pesticides in the US. We make these very decisions every day based on the best information available. My function is to provide the benefit assessments in answer to the health effects and environmental fate and effects. It is a balancing act, one I'm sure which is duplicated with our counterparts in the Office of Air and Water. You must realize that as our scientific knowledge of these products change over time, so must our regulations. Such is the current case with teflon related compounds. I have seen pesticide usage that could not be made acceptable even with the most stringent PPE and buffer zone requirements. Just because they work as advertised is no reason to keep them on the market when weighed against the identified impacts. Now I'll get off the soapbox as well. Don A38765.9007407407

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:33 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:05 am
Posts: 749
Location: Canada
I only build steel string and only use French Polish. My guitars are used a lot in outdoor venuse, festivals etc, and they stand up well. Every one thinks that steel string players won't be open to french polish and will demand Nitro but I haven't run into anyone who feels this way. I have run into many who have heard that French polish is better and are excited to find a builder who uses it. For the ocational person who brings up alcohol wrecking the finish I just grab a beer and dump it on the back. won't hurt it a bit.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:53 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
Aaaa but you don't disagree you weight the benifit and the hazard and if the hazard is beyound reason you act accordingly.

I never ment to infer that enviro or heath reasons could not be enough to justify the no use of a product. In fact many many times tey are.

My point is that many potinial harmful products need to be evauated both on the merits of ther benifit balanced aginst the hazard. and that is exactly what you are saying, in your words, "It is a balancing act".

If you take that one paraghaph of what I wrote, by it's self, it easy to read into it- that I am saying the product benifit should out weight the hazard and that was not at all my context.

The true trust of what I was trying to get across was we are in a craft that requires that we use some hazardus material, and to infer that a product is un fit to use regardless if proper precautions are take soely based on the MSD and without regard for the usfullness and benifits of the product is only looking at one side of the coin

There are most definaltly time wher the risk out weight the benifit, but as bad as MEK (the worst part of a nito solvent) its benifits taken with proper precautions is not noe of them.

personaly I hate the stuff raw, but enjoy the final product.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:27 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
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Location: United States
Hesh I was tought by my grandfather. I have been doing it for over thirty years. A lot has changed in convention over the past several years. many are buffing out the same day. but i grew up believing that the hardnes achived is in large part due to the repeditive padding on and spriting off process. In short repeditve compacting the amalglamation.

Anyway if interested in the old fasion version I would be glad to help. If interest in the fast version then I am in the same boat you are in and need tutalageMichaelP38765.9783217593


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:36 pm 
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Contributing Member
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Hesh, I believe he went to catalysed polyester. I think it's considered to be a better material than urethane, at least it was in the kitchen cabinet industry.

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Only badly."


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:29 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:37 am
Posts: 2670
Location: United States
First name: John
Last Name: Mayes
City: Norman
State: OK
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
you might want to talk with bruce sexauer. He does varnish/shellac/
something or other finish...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:33 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
Shellac is actually a pretty hard finish, or was considered so before the modern 'cast iron' stuff came out, Now that people have come to expect cast iron [and to treat their guitars as if they were finished with it], it's considered 'soft', as, indeed, is the somewhat harder nitro.

I don't see how padding on can 'compact' shellac. There's enough solvent in it that it shrinks noticably for quite some time after you finish applying it, so when you stop padding the molecules are not as close together as they are going to get. In fact, the solvent 'stress relieves' it, and the final density of the coating has to be a function of the nature of the particular shellac used. Of course, given the thinness of the coating, it's going to be just about impossible to 'prove' this either way by experiment.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:05 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:40 am
Posts: 1286
Location: United States
What filler do you guys that have used Behlen Rock Hard Varnish recommend?



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:12 pm 
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Location: Ithaca, New York, United States
[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] the final density of the coating has to be a function of the nature of the particular shellac used. [/QUOTE]

(The following questions aren't just directed at Al, and I don't expect anyone to have all the answers... they are just some of the questions buzzing around in my head as I think about finish choices, and I welcome anyone's input...)

Any thoughts on how to ensure that the shellac one is using will be as dense/hard as possible (other than the freshness)? Is there, do you suppose, significant variation in hardness/density between shellac of different types or from different sources? Do you add other resins to increase hardness? Do other resins really increase shellac's hardness? Is it true that sprayed WB shellac results in a harder finish than alcohol based shellac? Does the hardness of any finish really matter much if it is applied very thinly and the wood under it is soft enough to dent easily, as with guitar tops (i.e. since a pick or fingernail can "scratch" spruce, not by actually scratching at all, but by slightly compressing the fibers, is there any finish strong enough to prevent that without being applied rather thickly? If not, what does that suggest about finish choices?)?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:48 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:38 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: United States
   Finishes ahhh the opinions expressed here are strickly my own , I think .
    I have been around wood all my life. My dad was a cabinet maker and I to played there for a while till I found guitars. You need to rememeber the finish is there to proect the wood from water and other contaminates.
      Lets face it , all finishes have thier good and bad points be it health and safty or environmental. With common sense and reasonable protection you will be fine. I still prefer lacquer but there are only a few brands that are worth anything , Behlens string instrument lacquer and there is a local campany here that I can get high solids lacquer.
      Most lacquers have been refined too far to be good for anything else but production furniture. Schellac is still a great finish and can be sprayed or brushed.
   Enjoy the discussion as we all have an opinion when it comes to finishes. There are no perfect finishes as each will have its own trade off.
John Hall

    


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:25 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:32 am
Posts: 7774
Location: Canada
Hi Todd, brilliant and timely question as i have the same worries that you have. By reading your question, it seems your choice towards shellac is made but noww is just a matter of which brand is best ? I've been told that Lee Valley sells really good shellac, if it's as good as their other products, namely HHG, i'm gonna buy it from them! I don't know if shellac works like wax by applying thin coats but if it is the case, the more coats you apply, the more solid protection you're going to get and the shinier it'll get also.

For additives, i don't know if i would use them without knowing the chemical reaction of everything involved. I hope that a shellac pro will answer your questions and mine. I would add my question to this if you don't mind, is it possible to buff shellac with a home made buffer with 8" pads/buffs ?

Serge

wow i didn't use the lol buttun!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:38 am 
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I've been using McFaddens catalyzed urethane lacquer for the last year and a half with excellent results.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:04 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Todd I don't want to put words in Mario's mouth but I don't think he meant to imply that the sprayed or any other application of WB shellac was any harder than alcohol based shellac. It's just a good product.

Sergi I have buffed the WB shellac with great results.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:12 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:25 pm
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From my limited understanding of shellac: the less refined (Kusumi, buttonlac), the stronger. The more refined (blonde dewaxed), the weaker.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:23 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Thanks Bob, could you direct me to some written procedure or do you have it on your website ?TIA

Serge


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:23 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:32 am
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Thanks for the tip Mattia!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:23 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:57 am
Posts: 158
Location: Italy
I only FP my instruments. It takes a little practice but once you get enough experience it's way long the best way to finish respecting the wood properties.
My 0,01 eurocent opinion
Luigi



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:05 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
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What Mattia said: my understanding is that less refined shellac is tougher. It also usually has more color, of course, and thus can be harder to apply. I've had some bad experiences with 'super blond' breaking down fast under sweat, while the seedlac I've been using holds up pretty well.

That's relative, of course. Yes, as thin as it is, no FP finish is going to offer much protection against scratching. I spend several weeks after every show re-polishing the cedar top on the 'Autumn' guitar. No matter how much you ask people to be careful, they are just so used to the modern hard finishes that they slip up and mark it.

There are resins that are harder than shellac, that can be added to it. Usually they are more brittle, though. Shellac seems to be cross-linked, and is much tougher than many spirit resins. It also gets tougher and more solvent resistant with time. Lots of time, unfortuneately: it takes about 75 years for shellac to become totally insoluble.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:59 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I still say "Musical Instrument Varnish #2", in the old coffee jar is the best stuff.

Colin

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